On the eve of his retirement, outgoing BDO chief Wayne Berson looks back at major changes in the profession, and what he sees in its future.
Transcription (This transcript is generated by AI; for any discrepancies or questions, refer to the audio version of the podcast.):
Dan Hood (00:02):
Welcome to On the Air with Accounting Today. I'm editor-in-chief Dan Hood. Most milestones offer a chance to pause and reflect on what's gone before and what's to come, but departures are particularly good for this kind of exercise. And with that in mind, we're excited to have with us here today Wayne Berson, who is stepping down at the end of June after 14 years as head of BDO USA, which grew to a top 10 multi-billion dollar firm on his watch and became an ESOP among many, many other exciting initiatives and new things that they brought to the accounting profession. Wayne, thanks so much for joining us.
Wayne Berson (00:31):
Thanks for having me, Dan. It's a pleasure.
Dan Hood (00:34):
Yeah, like I said, it's sort of sad that you're retiring, you've earned a break. I think we were talking a little bit earlier about how many terms you've served more than anybody else at PDO. And you've done a lot. The firm has changed a lot on your watch and under your leadership. So it's well-earned break, but let's talk a little bit about back when you took the helm at, which I think is 2012 if I got that right. What do you know now that you wish you knew then?
Wayne Berson (01:02):
I think a personal belief that has always helped inform my leadership can be summarized in three short words, we before me. It all comes back to culture at the end of the day. The lasting success is built around collaboration, around accountability, around a genuine commitment to other people. And when people working for you feel supported and they feel heard, they're better equipped to navigate change. They're better equipped to address any challenges you throw at them and they also achieve outcomes that no on can accomplish alone. And I would say that that is something throughout my career I felt very important as well as the fact I would say that mentors that I worked with taught me to seek to understand before being understood. As CEO, I found that some of our best ideas came from conversations with our own professionals across the firm. When my leadership team and I took the time to listen, what we learned helped shape the BDO that we are today.
(02:17):
And when the stakes are high, I believe that leadership is less about having all the answers and more about creating clarity, building the trust amongst the team and bringing the people together around a common goal.
Dan Hood (02:35):
Thanks. I love that we before me is a pretty powerful foundation for all the things you just talked about. It gets you ready to listen. It gets you ready to support people. Very cool. I mentioned that the firm has become a top 10 multi-billion dollar firm, lots of other changes become an ESOP and so on. When you look at, what are some of the biggest changes during your tenure that you sort of say, "Yeah, that's a big one.That's one that really stands out for me.
Wayne Berson (03:02):
Yeah, there've been a number of changes. I would say that BDO has dramatically transformed over the past 14 years and became one of the top accounting and audit firms in the US and also the world. Our revenue grew by nearly sixfold to more than 3.4 billion and we increased our headcount in a similar fashion, but numbers alone don't always capture what has changed. And we have transformed from a traditional partnership model to an ESOP, the first large accounting and advisory firm to do that. And that's a fundamental shift in how we are owned, governed, and also how we align around a common purpose. The ESOP's impact has been more than financial. It's been behavioral. Everyone thinks it's just financial. It's more than that. It gets into what I touched on earlier about culture. The culture is so important. And when we ask professionals to embrace new tools or new processes, they don't ask how it affects their job.
(04:18):
They're going to ask, "How does this affect the value that I own?" And that mindset shift is what separates compliance from commitment. And perhaps most importantly, I'm so proud to share that we have built a strong people first culture. So much so that 90% of our professionals said in our annual 2025 employee survey that they feel a sense of belonging and 95% said they feel encouraged to develop others. That to me is something to be proud of and that's a change over the 14 years that I feel very proud about.
Dan Hood (05:05):
Well, I want to pursue that. You talked about pride, that's certainly something well worth being proud of. And I've mentioned a couple of your other teams, you've mentioned some as well. What are you proudest of? When you look back, I know everyone says, "Who's your favorite child?" Everyone says, "Oh, my children are favorite. What of the things that have happened at the firm or the new things you brought to the forefront there?" If you had to pick one, what would be the thing you say, "Yeah, that's the thing I'm happiest to have done."
Wayne Berson (05:31):
I would say that it's helping build a truly people first organization. We fostered a culture that was tangible. It wasn't just something that we spoke about where our people felt genuinely valued, they felt supported and they felt cared for. And I would hope that that showed up in the way we invested in our people and how we listened to them, how we created opportunities for them to grow and work to make BDO a place where they could build meaningful careers and truly thrive. Dan, establishing the firm's ESOP in 2023 is also something I'm very proud of. Its establishment was an important way to give our people a greater stake in the firm's future and a more direct opportunity to share in the value they help create every single day.
Dan Hood (06:33):
Excellent. I want to take a step back a little bit and talk about the operating model of the business model for accounting in the accounting profession as a whole. Obviously, as you mentioned, you're certainly the largest firm and recently one of the firms that sort of pioneered ESOPs, other few small firms had done once earlier, but certainly by far the largest of the largest and first among the current wave of ESOPs. But broadly, we're seeing accounting firms reach for new models in a lot of different ways. They're taking partnerships with not just private equity, we're seeing family offices. We're seeing other forms of outside capital come in. We're seeing firms set themselves in alternative practice structures. What's changing about the business model of accounting firms that's bringing this about? Or is that what's changed? It's something about the business model of accounting that's bringing this sort of search for new models?
Wayne Berson (07:27):
The traditional partnership ownership model that we've known for years and years, that model defined our profession for decades. It's no longer the only path forward. It is one path, but it's not the only one. And we've watched a wave of private equity investments reshape the profession with firms pursuing different organizational structures and different long-term objectives. When I took over in 2012, the partnership ownership model was still the default model. Today there's a real conversation around alternatives. We chose the ESOP because it enables us to maintain control of our destiny while building a stronger, more resilient and sustainable firm for the future. That was important to us. The fact that we could control keep control of our own destiny. Our employees have beneficial ownership in BDO at no cost to them whatsoever. Accounting firms, business models have also evolved towards talent and how do you keep people?
(08:44):
What are the dynamics around the people proposition? And this all is what led to the ESOP. Like many industries, the accounting profession's talent pipeline ebbs and flows. This obviously requires the leaders to regularly reevaluate or to nurture or even to pivot as organizational and employee needs evolve. And we regularly talk to our people. We have pulse reviews all the time. So firms have had to invest in people and they've had to create environments where professionals can thrive through upskilling AI training programs has obviously been important. Flexible work strategies is another important area. Clearer career paths and mentorship and coaching. All of this is very important. And for us as a people first firm, we fee we do a very good job on that.
Dan Hood (09:51):
As you look ahead, are we going to see more of these kinds of changes, more new models, more new models for accounting firms to try out and to explore different ways to satisfy the sort of needs of their staff or their clients or the markets? Do you see a further proliferation of different models or are we looking at what we've got now?
Wayne Berson (10:11):
I think the conversation around alternative ownership models is going to continue to evolve. The ESOP model is not for everyone, but I think the underlying principle of giving people a stake in what they're building is universally applicable across the profession. And we've seen this in terms of our own talent recruitment. That's important for us, talent recruitment and retention. The fact that our staff turnover has plummeted from where we were before we started the ESOP three years ago speaks to that when at the same time the rest of the industry is not going down as fast as we are. So it's a multifaceted effort. And while there has been an increase in accounting enrollments, the firms still need to continue to create meaningful career experiences to build a long-term stable and let's say an impactful talent pipeline. Also, AI is fundamentally reshaping the economics of the profession and firms that treat AI as a transformation play will have genuine competitive advantages.
(11:35):
While AI can take on more routine tasks, I see accounting professionals needing to increasingly focus on soft skills to help their clients such as problem solving, critical thinking, advisory and consultations. I believe that human-centered leadership adaptability and continuous learning is going to be essential moving forward. So I think there's a lot of different ways firms can move forward and every firm's trying to do what they feel is the best way forward. Our feeling was you win when your team comes with you. I've always felt that just because I had the title of CEO doesn't mean people are going to follow me because of their title. They'll follow you if they like you, they'll follow you if they believe in you. And what we try to do with this human-centered leadership is adapting to today's generation of people entering our profession. And I think you have to adapt as a firm in order to move forward.
Dan Hood (12:48):
And clearly a huge part of that adaptation is in how you treat your staff and particularly your younger staff as they rise up. And you guys have obviously done great work at that. I want to dive a little bit more into that, the people aspect of the profession and where it's going and what it's going to be like to be an accountant as opposed to an accounting firm or accounting firm leader in the second half of the podcast. But first, we're going to take a quick break.
All right, and we're back. We're talking with Wayne Berson, the long term, I should say, longtime head of BDO. His approach in the end of his fourth term there, he's going to be stepping down and for a much needed break. We've been talking about changes in the operating model of accounting firms in the different new things that PDO has explored, particularly the ESOP model that allowed it to bring all kinds of benefits to its employees as well as other things the firm's done for those employees.
(13:46):
I want to talk a litle bit about what it's going to be like to be not necessarily an accounting firm, but an account, just a person in the accounting profession. When you think about the way an accounting career is going to look like, what it's going to look like in the future, do you think it's going to change significantly? And if you do, how do you think it's going to change?
Wayne Berson (14:05):
I think it will look different and I think you've got to be prepared to adapt. That is the key. When you look at what's happening in the world around us, look at the global tax and regulatory environment. This is changing all the time. It's growing more and more complex and these complexities are what creates the demands for sophisticated advisory services that firms like BDO are uniquely positioned to deliver. There are not a lot of firms that can do that type of service. So as we bring people in and the natural question is, well, what are you doing with the people entering the profession? How do they move up if you're working with AI and everything else? Well, how they move up is they get in position to do these more sophisticated advisory services that the large firms like a BDO are uniquely positioned to deliver.
(15:02):
So that helps define and even redefine a client's experience from periodic engagements to what we like to say is continuous technology enabled relationships that deliver real-time insight to a client and data-driven decision-making. Because even as AI continues to integrate into the industry's day-to-day work, the accounting industry at the end of the day is still a relationship business and relationship building will be essential to strengthening client connections and helping businesses succeed. So there's a lot there that goes into this and I think it's the firms that package at the best that will succeed.
Dan Hood (15:54):
Gotcha, gotcha. Well, when you look back on your career, obviously I think we will all be a very, very, very successful career taking it all the way to the heights of one of the biggest firms in the profession, as you say, both in the US and abroad around the world and you played a huge role in making it that successful. When you look back on that career, what is a young accountant who's setting out to be the next Wayne person? What do they need to be thinking about? What do they need? What skills should they be focusing on? What strategies should they be employing to make sure they can rise to the very heights?
Wayne Berson (16:30):
Well, it's very kind of you. And I do think that a future young accountant can also have a career like mine, but it'll look different and that's okay. AI is going to free up professionals from the routine work that I had to do early on in my career and just redirect their focus on higher value, value to the client, more sophisticated, more strategic work. And that's an enormous opportunity because those folks are going to get closer to client decision-making faster than I did. I also believe that the skills mix is going to shift data literacy, critical thinking, communication, and the ability to collaborate with AI is going to matter more than it does even today. So I believe the best accountants will be those who can combine technical excellence with business acumen and also relationship building. It's all people at the end of the day.
(17:37):
Right.
Dan Hood (17:38):
Excellent. And then finally, I think this is for anybody who's out there who's a firm leader, they want to know what's your secret. What's your best advice for someone who's leading a firm regardless of size that they're just trying to get a bunch of accountants to work together to build something bigger? What's your best advice for them?
Wayne Berson (17:55):
I would say for the next generation of accountants that the profession is at an inflection point. With AI, with globalization, with the varying business models, professionals who enter this field have an incredible opportunity to help shape what the accounting industry looks like for the next 50 years. This is a chance to be at the forefront of that change. Also, don't underestimate the human element. The best accountants and the best advisors I know are not just technically excellent. They are knowledgeable professionals who build lasting relationships, which is something that technology cannot replace. I think you also got to seek out organizations that will invest in your development. They have to be prepared to invest. So I would look for firms and leaders who are committed to the individual's growth, who wants to see you thrive and who make it possible for you to be your authentic self at work.
(19:05):
The culture we touched on earlier matters more than one things that is top of mind. I would then say stay curious about technology. AI is a tool to augment your work, not to replace it. The firms that are investing at scale in AI literacy are giving the people in their teams the tools to adapt, collaborate, and also to innovate. And that's where you want to be, where you can also innovate and think and drive the direction your firm is going. I think for the firm leaders, putting people first and meaning it, that is something that I think is really important. This isn't a soft answer to a hard business question. To me, putting people first and meaning it is the foundation of everything. Firms that build genuine cultures of belonging and development will win the talent battle and build client loyalty that translates directly to revenue.
(20:14):
If you think about the ESOP again, what we did had to work for 14,000 people, not just a few hundred partners. It had to work for every single person. And I think when you look at the different models that are out there today, not every answer is going to work for the entire firm, but there's no ways anyone can tell me the ESOP does not work for 100% of the people in our firm. People are getting something for free. So I think you have to rethink your business model. The traditional partnership model is no longer the only path forward. It could be an ESOP. It could be private equity. It could be another structure. You got to choose consciously and choose in alignment with your values. So this is your values as a leader. How can you sleep at night if you're not helping others?
(21:15):
How will you sleep better if you are helping others? So I like to say, does the way BDO is structured give our people a genuine reason to go all in and the right model enables long-term sustainability and purpose alignment. We were founded in 1910 and I'd like to see us around for a few more hundred years. So this right model is really important. I think if you can do all of that, you're going to make the profession more visible, accessible, and also appealing. So while we're cautiously optimistic about the recent increase in the number of accounting enrollments, attracting talent is only one part of the equation. You have to retain that talent. You got to develop the talent. You've got to create a meaningful career that's still critical to the success of the industry and the individual. So I would say do not sacrifice culture for growth.
(22:21):
Don't sacrifice culture for growth. 61% of our growth at BDO was organic. It wasn't acquired and it happened because we stayed disciplined about who we brought into the firm and what we as a firm at BDO stood for. So when you make a strategic combination, one needs to make sure that the firms coming in share your values. Another thing I would say would be listen more than you speak. A great piece of advice that I learned from one of my mentors, Andrew Lang, before I joined BDO in 2001 was to really listen to what others are saying before I started speaking. Your people have insights about what the clients need, about what talent wants and what the market is shifting toward. And we need to listen, understand it, don't rush to respond and then we can provide insider counsel. And finally, I'd say we protect what's working while you evolve what needs to change.
(23:35):
Your core purpose and your values, that's your operating system, but they shouldn't change with every market shift, but your strategy that evolves with the needs of your employees and also the clients. Those will be my tips.
Dan Hood (23:54):
That's an excellent set of tips. Great advice. And it certainly works for you. Wayne Berson, thank you so much for sharing all this with us and for talking with accounting today over the years. It's been a pleasure watching you do what you do at BDO and wish you good luck with a well-deserved break. A little
Wayne Berson (24:16):
Chance
Dan Hood (24:17):
To step back and sit down. So thank you very much for joining us.
Wayne Berson (24:21):
Thank you very much. My pleasure. And thanks for what you and Accounting Today do for our profession.
Dan Hood (24:26):
Well, cheers, thanks. And thank you all for listening. This episode of On the Air was produced by Accounting Today with audio production by Adnan Khan. Rate or review us on your favorite podcast platform and see the rest of our content on
