With the flow of accountants in the talent pipeline down to a trickle, firms need to find alternatives to hiring accountants. This session will explore their many options, from outsourcing and offshoring, to automation, rightsizing your client list, and reconfiguring your job descriptions to give more work to non-accountants.
Transcription:
Panelist (00:11):
All right. Welcome everyone, Today's session. Before we begin, and I introduced our great speakers, I just wanted to remind you that if you want CPE, make sure to scan your code upon entry and exit of the room. So just a reminder for everyone wishing to obtain CPE credit. Now I'm very pleased to introduce our panel. It's been a topic, a hot topic obviously throughout the conference so far. As Dan mentioned in his opening remarks, we'll hear a lot about this. So I'm very excited that this session is very tuned into this and I love the title of the session. What do you need staff for? So it's a question we'll aim to answer, at least get some more insight into. And we have some great speakers today. We have Ralph Carnicer. He is the VP of business development at tax file. After graduating with his master's degree in accounting and obtaining his CPA license, Ralph went off to move up in the ranks as the big four accounting firms in Miami. He ultimately left KPMG as a manager in transaction advisory services to join tax file where he serves as the vice president of business development. We also have Kristen Keats, CPA at Sherwood Tax and Accounting. She is a CPA with over 20 years of experience serving small businesses and self-employed clients. She has worked for both large and small firms over the course of her career. She's also served in industry positions, and she's also the proud founder of Breakaway Bookkeeping and advising an innovative small business advisory firm focused on a technology and community and the owner of Sherwood Tax and Accounting. In 2021, Kristen and her partners formed Cadencia, a staffing agency located in Guadalajara, Mexico to support US accounting firms. So they both have a lot of expertise to share on this topic. So I will dive right in for generations. Accounting firms have relied on full-time staff for most work and with maybe some part-time staff, particularly for tax season. How and why has this model changed? And Ralph, I'll start with you.
Ralph Carciner (02:21):
Yeah, So what we've seen is a lot of firms are now struggling to retain talent and it's a blood bath out there. So what people are doing is they're switching over to more flexible models. They are giving their staff almost whatever they want from unlimited vacation time to 20, 25% raises every year for the past couple years. They're really, it's turned into a seller's market in the case of talent. So that's what we've kind of seen.
Panelist (02:55):
Okay, great. And Kristen, what have you seen?
Kristen Keats (02:59):
One of things I've seen that has really peaked I feel in the last couple years is burnout in accounting. And so I think part of the problem is finding talent coming through a pipeline, but the other problem I'm seeing is, at least what I've experienced in my own practice is folks just leaving the tax industry completely because they're just getting burned out and they don't want to do this anymore. So it's just led us to come to the conclusion that we can't just keep doing what we're doing, we have to change things up and do things differently. And so changing how we staff things as part of that solution.
Panelist (03:35):
Absolutely. At accounting today, I know we've noticed both of those things. Obviously the pipeline problem, the burnout problem. So as we were discussing in the earlier sessions today, kind of put a positive spin, a look at the opportunities here. What are the alternatives to these staffing models?
Ralph Carciner (03:57):
Yeah. So a lot of times firms have looked at independent contractors that come in into their office for four or five days a week for three, four months during busy season we had tax law. We've kind of done things a little bit differently. We give you access to four or 5, 10, 15 depending on how many returns you need to get done. Dedicated people who will basically stay with you throughout tax season or throughout your contract and until you get to the number of returns that you need to get to, and then they can rejoin you in extension season. Or if you've got great clients that provide you a steady stream of work throughout the entire summer, they can stay on with you for all that time period. And we're seeing a lot of success for both the firms and the practitioners that we kind of have in our network. We've seen practitioners that earn an entire year's salary and busy season. Meanwhile, the firms don't have to keep them on the entire year and they don't have to support that entire salary. So this is an interesting model that we've kind of picked up on and we're really helping a lot of firms to take advantage of the fact that they don't need somebody there all year to sit on the bench for 6, 7, 8 months of the year.
Panelist (05:10):
Great. And Kristen, what about you?
Kristen Keats (05:13):
We're kind of trying all kinds of things. So yeah, we've tried to be creative with our staffing, like you mentioned. So we form Cadencia, which utilizes an outsource staffing model to try to get a pipeline going of staff. But not only that, I mean really looking more into automating as much as we possibly can and then we're moving more toward a higher value client. And so that was the other thing that was discussed this morning is really getting rid of this high volume thing that we've kind of always done and the profession and really taking a critical eye to our client list, keeping the higher value client, looking at a clients and going after those to just try to reduce the client load and just have a better experience for everyone, including the clients and the staff. Ideally. That's the goal.
Panelist (06:02):
Those things are so linked, obviously. Yeah. So that's great. And can you, Kristen, talk about some of the pitfalls that come with some of these more innovative models that you have both discussed?
Kristen Keats (06:15):
Yeah, I mean the pitfalls of, so for the automation for example, we've tried to put in some of the scan return technologies or things like that. Really the pitfalls is getting through that first time, that's usually the hardest thing, getting through that first season where you're using a remote staff or getting through that first season of using that new tool. And then once you get through that it gets easier, but it's getting through that first time. And really I think the more, more thoughtful and intentional you can be about what your needs are and what you're looking to accomplish, the better off the end product will be. I think so much we're just chasing our own tail and just trying to get the work out the door that we haven't created that space to be intentional. And so I think now is a really good time for all of us to really take a breath and think about what we need in our firms. And I think having going to this conference is a great thing to hear about what other firms and folks are doing. And I would say talk to as many people as many of these other practitioners that are here as possible and how are they solving for this in their firms? Because I think it's not one solution. It's going to be all of these solutions. It's going to be getting additional help in the US getting some outsourced staff and getting some technology on board too.
Panelist (07:38):
Absolutely. And you mentioned getting through that first time. Do you have any advice for how to do that or is that something you just kind of have to power through and then just put the Band-Aid off?
Kristen Keats (07:45):
I did. I haven't found an easy way to get through that first time.
Panelist (07:52):
Hence why it's a pitfall, but it's something to get through and to reap all the benefits from it. Right? So Ralph, what about you?
Ralph Carciner (07:59):
Yeah, I mean we see it with our clients all the time. That first year is a bit of an adaptation curve. What I will say is that companies like ours, whether it's us or somebody offshore or even a different solution altogether, they're very much here not to sell you on the service because we know you need it, but we're here to partner with you guys to help make that transition as smooth as possible. So our onboarding team has onboarded about a hundred firms this year, and they've learning from all these different firms of all these different sizes, and they can really act as a great resource for you guys to figure out what's going to work for your firm and what's not going to work for your firm. It's almost like if I tell you to build one piece of IKEA furniture, you're going to power your way through it and you're going to struggle through it. But if I tell you to build a hundred pieces of IKEA furniture, you're figure out a great process that's going to help you get through those a hundred pieces very quickly. And that's the way we think about our pilots. We want people to commit to changing their processes internally to accommodate this new model that they're adopting.
Panelist (09:09):
Great. And in terms of pitfalls, were there any others that you've experienced or witnessed that Kristen didn't touch on?
Ralph Carciner (09:17):
To my earlier point there? I'd say, and this is going to sound really salesy and I'm going to preface it with that, but under committing, right? Because if you don't go all in on a solution, you're just going to end up with results that are mediocre at best.
Panelist (09:31):
Right. And how do you know some of these great alternatives and innovative new models you've mentioned? How do you know which one is right for your situation? I'll start with you, Ralph.
Ralph Carciner (09:46):
I would leave it on the practitioners themselves to understand what their exact challenges are. The best way that I can put it is to set up a framework to help you evaluate what's going to work for you. How big is your firm, how process oriented are you versus going off on one-offs, what tenure do your employees have? Are your employees afraid that their jobs are going to go away or are you going to give them, or are they confident that you're going to give them high value work that's more challenging, that's more engaging, that's less prone to burnout. So it's really unique to each firm, but those are some of the questions that you can ask yourself to figure out what's going to be right for your firm.
Panelist (10:28):
Great. And more specifically, how do you know when you should outsource remote employee look for fractional talent? You already kind of touched on this, but how do you know when those very specific instances are? Right?
Ralph Carciner (10:41):
Yeah, I mean, again, it's really going to depend on what you're comfortable with. But if you need to have somebody in your office every single day and you're looking for a temp worker, then probably we wouldn't be a good fit for you. Whereas if you're comfortable with work getting done while you're asleep, then maybe an outsource model or an offshore model is right for you. Or if you're trying to avoid 3:00 AM wake up calls because they have questions about work that you sent over, maybe the domestic option is the right choice for you. So it's just figuring out what your preferences are and what you're comfortable with and letting that be your northern star.
Panelist (11:18):
Great. And Kristen, how do you gauge? How should people Gauge?
Kristen Keats (11:21):
For me, I always go back to community. So I think it's so important to have a network of other practitioners that have been down the same road that you're going down. And because all of us are going through this whole trial and error, so you can really talk to other practitioners and see what worked for them and kind of gauge, okay, whose firm is the most similar to mine in experiencing or had experienced the problems that I'm experiencing and how did they solve for it? And I agree though that once you get to a solution, especially in a solution that involves humans, you really have to commit and be patient to work through the process. And again, I think that's where having that community is important because you have to be able to have that. I was just having a discussion right before this about another person who'd used an outsource solution. If you can really collaborate on what the problems are and develop solutions together, it's just so much more powerful.
Ralph Carciner (12:16):
Sorry. And to that point, just to add on that, that's why conferences like these and also the different alliances or associations of firms are so important as well. Cause that really does give you that community.
Kristen Keats (12:26):
Yeah, absolutely.
Panelist (12:27):
And I like what you said about events like this. A quick plug for our ask the experts will be after this, so another opportunity to hear some great information. But I know it's very important for all these, this pure exchange of information and best practices is so crucial in this profession. So how do firms need to approach these alternatives differently than they would usually approach the more traditional full-time staff models? Kristen, I'll start with you.
Kristen Keats (12:59):
Yeah, I mean I think we definitely need to be more creative. Like I said a few minutes ago, I'm kind of about trying all of the things. So for example, I have a staff person working for me that doesn't have an accounting degree, she has a marketing degree, but she just decided to, she got interested in tax. And so we have to widen our net for the types of folks that are going to support us and what that kind of support looks like. And I think we're all in for maybe a little bit heavier lift than we've had in the past. But I think if we can get folks that are, one of the qualities that I'm looking for now is folks that have worked in retail or restaurant, they might not have the be the 4.0 GPA that some of the accounting students have, but I want someone who's more client focused. I want someone who has that more customer service mindset. So I'm just kind of shifting. And I think traditionally we always said, oh, you had to have an accounting degree. Well, do we need an accounting degree or can we teach the accounting skills and work with someone who has more of the other skills that we're looking for?
Panelist (14:06):
Great. And just quick follow up question on that. This casting a wider net, which we're seeing a lot of practices do with the issues with the CPA pipeline and everything. You had mentioned that it is a heavier lift. What other challenges do you see with that kind of approach?
Kristen Keats (14:24):
I mean it's kind of funny for me that someone that's been an accountant all these years, I actually got feedback from one of my staff people. She said, you talk to me like I'm an accountant already and I'm not an accountant yet. And I'm like, I don't know how to not talk to you. It was really hard for me. So that's the pivot that I'm having to make and just be like, okay, back to 101. And then I really have to focus on, but I mean, I just see the potential in folks and I see the potential in her that she's going to be great. She's the gal who, when the little old lady comes in with her box of receipts that wants to show me every single one and I can't, like right, Sarah will sit there and go through those receipts with her. And that's important. That really bonds people to you and to your firm.
Panelist (15:11):
Very valuable. And what about you, Ralph? How should firms approach this when they're used to the more traditional full-time staff model?
Ralph Carciner (15:19):
Yeah, I mean the great part about some of these alternatives is that they don't have the heavy lift associated with setting up interviews and then having the interview and then waiting through the right person who you think has a great chance of being successful with your firm is the right culture fit. With the right skillset you're really putting so many filters on that search that finding the right candidate is becoming harder and harder. So one of the advantages to what we do is we'll give you access to five or 10 or 15, however many people you need. And if one of them doesn't work out well, we can have them swapped out in about a day or two. So you're really widening the scope of what's what you can use at your firm. The other piece of it is there's going to be people at your firm that are going to rise through the ranks and they're going to be your ideal succession candidate. And there's going to be other people that they're just going to do the grunt work for you and they're really good at that. But maybe they have gaps where they don't have the people skills, the retail folks or the restaurant folks. And you kind of need a really good combination of people, but you also need a diversity of people. And that's where some of these models really accelerate because you've got exactly what you need for that specific role. And now you can focus on finding the people with those people skills or the people that are more, even more technically minded to be able to handle the more challenging engagements that your clients are bringing up to you in real time.
Panelist (16:56):
So firms have to learn as to Kristen's example to speak to work with these people a little bit differently and not just have that one.
Ralph Carciner (17:04):
Yeah, I mean there's different tools for different jobs, right?
Panelist (17:07):
Absolutely. I also want to mention we're going to have some time for questions at the end, but if you have any questions throughout the presentation, feel free to raise your hand. I know it's a big topic right now, so I know people have some interest in it. Next I want to ask, how do you fully integrate these people with the full-time staff that you have, the people that you have through these more alternative models of staffing? Ralph, I'll ask you first.
Ralph Carciner (17:35):
Yeah. So at least as far as our model is concerned, what we like to do is we like to have one or two champions at the firm that liaise between the firm and the talent pool that we're providing. And that way it's very, to understand the workflow, it's very easy to, if something happens, we know exactly who to go to and we assign somebody on our end as well that actually works at our company that acts almost like a non-technical manager. So they're kind of helping to make sure that work is actually getting done and progressing through the different swim lanes. So that's the way that we kind of work and that's what we've seen be successful. But it gets very nuanced sometimes depending on the firm that we're working with.
Panelist (18:21):
Absolutely. And what about you, Kristen?
Kristen Keats (18:24):
Yeah, same. I think having that project manager is critical. And also we make sure that all members of the team have access to all the tools. So they're in our project management software, they're attending staff meetings. We have a daily standup meeting or whenever we have strategy meetings, they're attending those really just like any member of the firm, because otherwise you're going to kind of have these different channels of communication, which is just not efficient at all. And so we just found as much as possible to just integrate our outsource team just right into the rest of our team.
Panelist (18:57):
Great. And to that point, how does technology fit into this in terms of using these new models? Are there ways you use these tools to support these kinds of integrations between traditional full-time staff?
Ralph Carciner (19:12):
Yeah, definitely. There's great services out there. We have our own SOC two compliant platform where you can chat and exchange documents and really collaborate. But a lot of times firms prefer to have that granular level of control over their IT functions and all their files. So what they'll do is they'll just issue usernames and passwords to the contractors that we're providing. And that way they have full control over all the security aspects. So that's great. And then the other thing is virtual private networks and virtual private machines, those things are indispensable nowadays when it comes to having that seamless integration between your internal employees and also your contractors.
Panelist (19:55):
Great. Kristen, are there specific tools and processes that are really good to employ in this?
Kristen Keats (20:00):
I mean, for us it was just critical that everything we do is cloud based for this reason. And so for the most part, we've been able to succeed with that mean, thankfully technology is at that point that we can utilize almost everything in the cloud. The only hangup was our tax software, which now we use a hosted tax software, so that's our workaround, but currently we don't have anything on a server in our office. Those days are over, so thank goodness. I know so that otherwise I don't see how it would work. But yeah, technology's definitely a huge part in that.
Panelist (20:32):
Great. That makes a lot of sense. And you both have discussed a lot of the opportunities that are available with these new staffing models. Are there any we haven't yet discussed, maybe ones that maybe would be unexpected to firms that have yet to pivot in this direction? Kristen, I'll start with you.
Kristen Keats (20:50):
I know that there's a lot of different, I mean, I'm excited actually about this being more embraced because even I think five years ago it was a little bit of a taboo subject to talk about outsourcing or using folks that weren't employees of your firm. And so I guess we can thank the pandemic a little bit for some of this, making it a little more palatable. But I think it's excited about folks being more creative. We're kind of forced to be more creative, but I'm excited about being more creative about, one of the things that we're exploring is not just having dedicated staff for the firm, and this is maybe similar to how you work, but really having a bench of folks available because maybe you can't commit to a whole staff person, but maybe you can just send some projects over. You know, just need some. So to be able to create some flexibility for firms that might not need a whole staff person, that that's something that we're exploring.
Panelist (21:42):
Great. And Ralph, what about
Ralph Carciner (21:43):
You? I don't have too much on this one, but I will say that the outsourcing model is becoming a lot more prevalent in all lines of service across firms from tax and audit to advisory. You know, may be working with somebody that doesn't, a full-time employee at these firms and is client facing even in a lot of cases. And to your point, this has become a lot less taboo in the last two, three years, which has been, I think it's a game changer for firms. I just don't know if enough firms have woken up to the fact that this could really revolutionize their practice.
Panelist (22:18):
Great. And I just want to stop and see if we have any questions as we're going along. We can make this a little more of a conversation, but yes, I think there's a mic coming to you. Sorry. Thank you.
Audience Member 1 (22:33):
As far as the office goes, when it happens with admin, when I guess files come in and then you out shore it, I guess the problem that we have is when we hire an admin, we need them to also have tax experience to be able to organize these files for other task preparers to work on it. What is you guys' solution? Because I think trying to hire somebody to be in the office has been a struggle for us that can actually handle all of these files, organize it. What I'm saying as far as the emails, phone calls and all that stuff, is there a solution that you guys recommend or something that's been working for you all?
Kristen Keats (23:17):
Well, I can tell you what our process is in our firm. Yes, we do have, I mean, Sherwood Tax has been a brick and brick and mortar office, so that clients were always used to bringing in information have, of course we have a portal where they can upload, but I think what you're asking about, how do you get it in an organized way so that the preparer can then begin work on the tax. And so we've actually trained our admin folks to organize that and what's important, and I always say more is better than less. So if they put documents in there that we don't need, that's not a big deal, we use a software that will bookmark it so that it's kind of ready to go for that preparer. But yeah, it is a training point. Sometimes we'll have our other folks that are in the office to help organize that and to show what's important, but it's a just training opportunity.
Audience Member 1 (24:08):
Got you. And do you guys also do set tax appointments still? Or are you guys basically all virtual? Do you do face appointments?
Kristen Keats (24:18):
Yeah, we're pretty much all virtual. And this year we use safes send to do virtual organizers, which we had varying success with it. It kind of like the clients are going to do what they're going to do and what they're comfortable with, but we're a lot more virtual than we were two years ago, I believe. So as more and more clients see that it's more convenient and they're getting their information differently too, I think more of their information is coming to their email or to their portals instead of in the mailbox, which I think helps us.
Audience Member 1 (24:49):
Yes. Okay.
Panelist (24:51):
And Ralph?
Ralph Carciner (24:52):
Yeah, whenever we work with a firm, we strongly advise that they have somebody on their end that can interact with the clients and also follow up on the open items list that our professionals provide them. So you know, still kind of need that person, but their role can just basically be a liaison or just a really good communicator between the clients and the talent that we offer.
Panelist (25:20):
And back to the technology support and what that offers for these models, do you think a cloud-based is kind of a necessity? I know Kristen, you had mentioned that.
Kristen Keats (25:31):
Kind of I do. Okay. I do, and I know that I'm excited for the technology to get better too. I think the scanned, the scanning technology, the OCR technology is getting better and better, which I'm excited about to really take a lot of the data entry off. And there's programs that will even do what you're talking about where they'll read the all the forms and even organize it for you. So I think that's really exciting in the next couple years. I imagine that's going to get a lot better.
Ralph Carciner (26:02):
Yeah, I would tend to agree. It's just it's night and day, it's driving a manual car versus driving an automatic car. There's just so much more to, you have to be mindful about when you, you're not cloud-based, right? What's your disaster recovery plan look like? Even that's completely taken out of the equation when you're basically a second thought.
Panelist (26:28):
And you've both talked about how in the last even couple years there's been a lot of changes. You talked about how it was taboo in the past, both your perspectives, how do you see it progressing in the next few years? Do you see a lot more firms kind of adopting these models?
Ralph Carciner (26:46):
I would say yes. I would say there's maybe 20 to 30% of all firms out there outsourced to some extent. Actually it's probably higher. It's probably closer to 70%. The other 30%, it's either because they had a bad experience one time and they're not willing to try it again, or they just have a real misconception around their client base and their willingness to have their information exposed to either India or to a third party here in the us. But I think that everybody's come to the place where they're pretty much comfortable with the fact that their information is out there, whether they like it or not. Obviously that doesn't absolve us of our responsibility to put the right controls in place and make sure that the right security standards are being followed, but people are getting more and more comfortable with that.
Panelist (27:38):
Great. And what do you say to those firms who've had a bad experience or maybe are very trepidation about entering into these new models?
Ralph Carciner (27:47):
Yeah, I would say just because it didn't work the first time or the second time doesn't mean that there's not a good partner out there for you that can really solve a lot of your bandwidth problems for you.
Panelist (27:59):
And Kristen, how do you see things progressing over the next few years?
Kristen Keats (28:03):
Yeah, I mean, I honestly feel like we don't have a choice except to embrace this. I mean, it's not only just mean the pressure that a lot of the baby boomer CPAs are retiring and their clients need somewhere to go. So that's creating pressure. And I mean, what I would say to those folks that are say something like, we tried it last year and it didn't work. I mean it's kind of funny to me because you wouldn't necessarily, if I tried to hire a receptionist and that person didn't work out, I wouldn't say, well, I'm not hiring a receptionist again. No, you would try again with another person because mean at the end of the day, these are humans that we're dealing with. And yes, some of them work out and some of them don't. And we can just try to get better about vetting and getting real specific about what our needs are, but we can't just throw up our hands because we just have to keep moving forward.
Panelist (28:50):
Right, absolutely. We had mentioned some pitfalls before. Are there any others that you've noticed with firms you've dealt with or within your own firm that maybe can be resolved?
Kristen Keats (29:06):
Yeah, I think just continuing to just try new things is going to be the trick. And again, just not getting caught up on if it didn't work once, that doesn't mean that it won't work again. I mean, I think it's just going to be real important that we persevere through that. And Ralph was saying, just really commit to, once you make a decision to, it's really, really tough when I see folks just kind of dip their toe in the water and it's real easy to just say it didn't work out. You know, really need to make that commitment and see it through and get to the other side of it.
Panelist (29:40):
Speaking of being cloud-based, kind of how firms approach that, and like you said, there's kind of going to be no choice at a certain.
Kristen Keats (29:46):
Absolutely. I, and I always just try to tell folks that there's kind of this happiness graph that I go through when you first make the decision, you're all excited and everybody's feeling great about the decision, and then you actually implement it and it goes down because things are going to go wrong. One thing you can guarantee is something is going to go wrong. Then once you get on the other side of it, you just know that this dip is going to happen and that you will get to the other side of it and then you know, would never go back to how it was before. But you got to get, I haven't figured out a way to get around the dip.
Panelist (30:19):
That's kind of what Alan Colton was mentioning in his session in terms of the firm that rewards people for failing just because you do have to go for it and there's going to be that dip or there's going to be that challenge or obstruction, but you kind of have to embrace it. Ralph Wood is your take on that.
Ralph Carciner (30:38):
I love that analogy, actually. Great. And that's what we see with a lot of our clients as well. They start off really excited that they've decided to adopt our solution and then they start working through it and they see, oh, this professional you guys decide to meet doesn't work out. And we're like, Hey, no problem. A day later there's a new one there. And then they start to, our professionals that we've assigned them start to adapt to their working style and understand what they like to see and their tax returns and their work papers and everything. And then it's like, oh, okay, cool. I don't see how I ever did this with without them before. So there's that. And then there's also the fact that a lot of times before we even sign on a new client, firms are discounting us because maybe the price point is too high, but they're not accounting for the reduced burnout. One of our clients was able to reduce everybody's, on average, everybody's weekly rate or weekly hours by a whole hour every single week. That's like commute time for a lot of people. So there's that. And then there's also the opportunity cost that people aren't measuring. What else are you going to do with that time? What new and interesting challenges are you going to assign your people to? Because now they're not bogged down with the routine grunt work of data entry on a 10 40, or not even data entry, but even the higher level work of verifying that it's done and thinking about the different implications of the different positions that have been taken on the return. What else are they going to do? Are they going to take on cost segregation studies? Are they going to start taking on r and d tax credits or whatever the case might be? So that's one of the shortsighted things that we see out there with a lot of firms.
Panelist (32:21):
Great. And I like that. I love that example of reducing by one hour. Do you point to some of those success stories when you're talking to these firms about what can come of these models or do you have other success stories?
Ralph Carciner (32:33):
We point to them all the time. We've got different, we've got different studies up on our website with different firms, but another success story that I would say has been pretty impactful is one firm was able to reduce their churn by about seven to 10% over the course of a busy season in this market that we've been seeing where everybody will quit at the drop of a hat apparently.
Panelist (32:56):
Right. And what about you, Kristen? I know you've mentioned obviously the success in your firm and with this.
Kristen Keats (33:02):
Just kind of dovetailing off what Ralph said. I mean, what I noticed in this last year is since I got through the first year, this was the second year going. So what I noticed this year is that we had that ability to really take on more, to take a keener eye at our clients at each one of them and to have more advisory opportunities for them. And what I was saying earlier is it gives you that opportunity for a higher value relationship with your client instead of just sweating and churning it out and getting tax returns done. Once you have that grind behind you, you can take a breath and go, oh, well this client should have an r d credit study done. This client should really look at retirement options. You just don't have the bandwidth to be able to do that if you're just putting in these crazy hours.
(33:46)
So I think it's almost like you can't even see that until you're on the other side of it to be able to be like, well, this is why I got into this in the first place. It wasn't just a crank out tax returns. It was to really have a relationship with my clients and really give them a better value at the end of the day. And that's what our North Star is, our motto is to bring joy to accounting. And well, the only way that we can do that is if we have a life and we have a way to be able to take a breath and really look at these clients, and that's what the clients want. When Alan put the list of what clients want, getting their tax return done wasn't one of them, but that's a way for us to see what they need. That tax return, at least for me as a practitioner, is a way to really, for me to get a really good idea of what their needs are and address those.
Panelist (34:31):
Great point. That client relationship is so important. And in terms of, you mentioned being two years into this practice, what is in the near horizon for your practice and how do you expect these models?
Kristen Keats (34:43):
I mean, I think more of the same of vetting through our clients, getting those higher value clients, fewer and more higher value clients, and then really working on building my team and growing my team. That was one of the questions from the last session is like, are they permanent staff people? I want my team to grow. I want them to advance, I want them to have other team members beneath them because the more I can leverage that, the more it frees the rest of us up to have those more impactful client relationships.
Panelist (35:14):
Okay, great. I want to take a pause again and see if we have any questions in the audience. Okay, great. So are there any of these alternatives we haven't touched on that you think we should explain to the audience that you think are important for firms to know about?
Ralph Carciner (35:36):
Yeah, I mean, I would say it's important to know what areas of your firm could use the most attention. Is it your CAS practice? Is it your tax practice? Is it your assurance practice? Is it your advisory practice? And there's all sorts of different solutions out there. If you're running an advisory practice, we're probably not a great fit for you, but there's people out there, one of the sponsors here, Perro or parro, they'll get you somebody there that has the experience to be that fractional CFO or whatever the case may be. On the assurance side, there's great tools out there that help automate a lot of different things. I remember from my days in auditing, confirmation.com was just coming out and that was groundbreaking because now you didn't have to put an intern in a mail room to watch where the confirmation's coming back in. So all these different tools are constantly coming out and it can be really hard to focus on which ones are going to make the biggest impact on your firm. And that's where you as a leader at your firm need to really know your firm and where you're struggling and where you can have or basically grab the lowest hanging fruit.
Panelist (36:49):
Right. Great advice. Kristen, is there anything?
Kristen Keats (36:52):
Yeah, I mean in that same vein, so one of our core values at my firm is performed your highest and best use. And so I'm always challenging my team. What tasks are you doing that can either be automated or to be given to a person at the next level down? And so even as the firm owner, I mean, I probably still do way too much admin work. So what is that? That's always the thing that we're constantly having discussions about and it's easy for me to see with other people, and then I have my partners to tell me, why are you doing that? I'm, I don't know, just because that's what I do, but it's always challenging each other because we do have that core value of, okay, is this your highest and best use? And if it's not, find someone else or find another process to be able to take that off.
Ralph Carciner (37:37):
It's so easy to be on autopilot too.
Kristen Keats (37:39):
Yeah, you don't even think about it. That's why I say the hardest thing is for me to look at myself, but I can look at my office manager and say, why are you doing that? You know, should be having the receptionist do that. You should be having our project manager do that.
Panelist (37:50):
Along that vein, how often do you take that inventory? Because I know it is difficult to look inward sometimes. Is there a process behind that? How do you facilitate those kind of conversations where you're judging how people are best using their time?
Kristen Keats (38:03):
I feel like it's almost like an internal, taking my temperature. It's when I start to feel burned out or notice my team starting to get burned out. It's like, okay, I kind of have this internal mechanism of, okay, what can I take off my plate? What can I take off your plate? When I see people, when I see that overwhelm set in, that's when I know it's time to like, okay, what do we need to reassess here? So I try to be real in tune with that because I'm very sensitive to burnout because I know that that's the kiss of death.
Panelist (38:34):
No, that's great. And a lot of firm leaders need to be. Ralph, do you have anything on that?
Ralph Carciner (38:40):
I don't particularly have anything. I've been out of practice for a minute. But I will say that is a great indicator of when it's time to sit back and take inventory when you're feeling burned out or when you're seeing your team starting to complain about burning the candle at both ends, that's a great time to figure out, hey, what's, what needs to change here?
Panelist (39:01):
And we've touched on this already, but for anyone here that kind of wants to go back and discuss with their team, with their leaders, kind of get buy-in to exploring these kinds of options, how would you advise them to do that?
Ralph Carciner (39:13):
I would say it's probably better to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission. No, but in all seriousness, sometimes somebody just needs to take initiative, you know, all can stare at the same problem and not do anything about it because maybe it's not a big enough problem yet. Or maybe there's a problem when a situation is not bad enough to warn you doing something about it, but also not good enough for you to be fully happy and you're just kind of stuck in this complacency. And that's probably the worst situation to be in. If your situation was a little bit worse, you would probably take the steps to make it really, really good. But here you are just slogging through because it's not bad enough and it's not that great. So I would say don't get stuck in that complacency. Explore the options, see what's out there, see what's right for you, and don't let other people around you convince you that it can't be better.
Panelist (40:12):
Right. Much burnout. Complacency can be a kiss of death as well as we know. Kristen, how would you advise people bring back?
Kristen Keats (40:20):
Yeah, so true. And so I think it's real important to be in tune with your staff. I think as firm owners, I mean especially I think back at some of the firms that I've worked at, and I think it's easy for the partners to be happy and the partners are making a lot of money and they're maybe even going home at six o'clock, but their staff might not be. And so I think it's real important to be in tune with them and even get their thoughts and ideas. I'm with you. I was a person that I always just asked for permission later. It didn't always work out well for me, ask for forgiveness later. But yeah, I mean I think that if I as a staff person or even as a manager had been given a little more leeway to explore things and a little more leash because those boots on the ground, people are the ones that are going to be most in tune for what solutions are going to work with you. So I'd say open communication would be key to that.
Panelist (41:13):
That's great. That forgiveness thing makes me think of Alan Colton's presentation with the crazy bird flying to the other tree. You would say you would identify squirrel?
Kristen Keats (41:23):
Yeah, I think I'm a Squirrel, Yes.
Panelist (41:24):
Perfect. Great. Do we have any questions? I know we're getting towards the end of time, so I want to make sure we get any questions in the crowd. Great. Yes, I think there's a mic we can bring to you. Thank you. So everyone can hear.
Audience Member 2 (41:53):
I just want to ask that if you can share the most rewarding things you have throughout this journey of using outsourced as team, and how has this changed you?
Kristen Keats (42:03):
Sorry, repeat that.
Audience Member 2 (42:05):
What is the most rewarding thing you have had through this journey of using the outsourced team or advertising that service to other accounting firms?
Kristen Keats (42:14):
Yeah, Thank you. So for me, the most rewarding thing is I think I was saying this year where I feel like I can really start seeing the benefits of it. The relationships with my clients have improved. And then I think also, I mean, I'm going to be honest, last year was terrible for us. It was a terrible year of a lot of stuff happened. We had people I could go on for an hour about all the terrible things that happened, but I know other folks in this room have experienced the same thing. So it was really a nice thing to see how just these ideas and the vision, and even though I didn't feel like I had much of a choice, I had to do something, I had to change something. So we tried these things, but to get on the other side of it and to see my team feeling better about it was hugely rewarding for me. But getting through that year was the trick.
Panelist (43:02):
And what about with the firms you've worked with?
Ralph Carciner (43:05):
Going back to my time in public accounting, I would say I always saw problems with the billable hour and firm economics and engagement economics. I always thought to myself like, man, we're all over here working our tails off 12 hours a day, 13 hours, 14 hours a day, whatever it was. And for some reason there's a guy sitting in the office who has nothing to do and this manager doesn't want to bring him on to this job because it's going to ruin the engagement economics. But as a firm, you're still paying that guy's salary. And I always thought, man, that's so backwards. So with us now, I get great sense of reward from seeing firms like, Hey, we can flat fee a lot of these different things. We're not beholden to the billable hour and what it means for the engagement economics. We're taking a more holistic approach to the way that firms are run. And I love opening people's eyes to that for me is probably one of the most rewarding things about my position now.
Panelist (44:05):
Sounds very, yeah. Great. Any other questions from the crowd? We have one over there. I think What Thank you for projecting. That was great. We could hear you. Either of you that wants to start.
Kristen Keats (44:32):
I'm trying to think of something we haven't touched on. I mean I would just go back to to processes again. I would almost have a staff person or someone else in your firm kind of test your processes and make sure those are real good mean, especially if we're dealing with either one of our situations. I mean, I think the more you can document your specific clients and your specific processes for what you do in your firm, the more successful it will be to do some kind of staffing solution.
Ralph Carciner (45:05):
Yeah, I would say, I wouldn't say rethink everything, but obviously take a slightly more inquisitive approach on why it is that you do things the way that you do. And I think that applies to all areas of affirm, whether it be why you're having your employees track time versus why you hire a certain person or a certain profile or why you bill your clients, the amount that you bill them. Just start asking why on some of these more fundamental questions and you'd be surprised at what insights kind of start to pop up.
Panelist (45:43):
Great. Thanks for the question. Do we have any others before we begin wrapping up? Right. Well, we've obviously covered a lot of ground. You've had spectacular insights. I just want to ask you if you have any closing thoughts, anything we haven't touched on that you think would be valuable for the audience? I know we've covered a lot of ground, but just give you both the opportunity for any last thoughts.
Kristen Keats (46:10):
My only last thought thought would be like, I'm just so grateful to the accounting community and I just think that we're all going to go further together. And so I think that the more that we can communicate with each other, the more we can share our own best practices, the better the industry will become. So I love that we're embracing these things that, like I said five years ago, we're taboo. I'm glad that we're all, more and more of us are getting on board because I think it'll make everybody's lives better. We have a united front as a community.
Panelist (46:38):
Absolutely.
Ralph Carciner (46:39):
Yeah. I guess for me, I would say don't be afraid to embrace new technology. I know the AI is out there. I know that the article that was published that AI couldn't pass an accounting test, which all makes us feel warm and fuzzy on the inside.
Panelist (46:51):
That's on Accounting Today.
Ralph Carciner (46:52):
But I would say don't be afraid to embrace that. Don't be afraid to hire somebody that even has an AI skill set or go with somebody that's offering an AI tool, right? Because all of these things, I mean, if we never wanted to switch over to electricity, where would we be today? So don't be afraid of those things. Explore them. Challenge the mindset of we're going to get replaced. No, you're not going to get replaced. In all case, in likelihood, you're going to get augmented and your staff is going to be augmented and we're all going to live barring the dystopian future that a lot of people paint you. We're all going to live better lives. So I would say don't be afraid to take on new technologies and new challenges.
Panelist (47:35):
Well, that's a great note to end on. And Ralph and Kristen, Thank you so much for sharing all your experience and your insight and thank you all for being here.
Ralph Carciner (47:43):
Thanks guys.
Track 2: What do you need staff for?
June 20, 2023 12:42 PM
47:49